Re: slamak pozarko Re: Fiber glass (Ecose) [was Re: [Ekodum] pěnové sklo]

[danielgrmela AT email.cz]

.. a je tez mozne to oblozit sdk red, ale to bych nechal az jako uplne 
posledni moznost

D.

> ------------ Původní zpráva ------------
> Od:  <danielgrmela AT email.cz>
> Předmět: slamak pozarko Re: Fiber glass (Ecose) [was Re: [Ekodum] pěnové 
> sklo]
> Datum: 28.1.2011 11:18:48
> ----------------------------------------
> Ahoj, odpoved Lukase pozarnika:
> 
> "cau,
> 
> RD bude muset byt zarazeny do III SPB. tim padem nam vzniknou vyssi 
> pozadavky na
> odolnost konstrukci.
> slama by nebyla problem, ale budou velke odstupy a musi se osetrit nosne 
> prvky.
> 
> L."
> 
> osetreni nosnych prvku znamena, ze muzou v projektu vyjit velke dimenze 
> a/nebo
> se bude do zpravy muset napsat protipozarni nater
> 
> skutecne provedeni pak stejne nikdo nekontroluje, cili je to fuk
> 
> velke odstupy znamenaji .. od nejvetsi fasady napr. kolem 9m
> 
> tam, kde se odstupy vejdou na vas pozemek je to v pohode urcite
> 
> tam, kde zasahnou na obecni pozemek a pozemek souseda bude potreba se s 
> majiteli
> pozemku domluvit
> 
> resivam to tak, ze se odkazu na onorm a na pozarni test harmonizovany s EN, 
> dle
> obojiho je slama B
>  2, F90 a reknu, ze u nas tyto testy zatim nejsou resp. jsou chybne
> zharmonizovane, proto se slamou musime pocitat jako s horlavym materialem a
> odstupy vychazeji vetsi, nez odpovida realnemu nebezpeci
> 
> na situacku a pohledy, ktere majiteli sousednicvh pozemku stejne nechavam
> podepsat "se stavbou soulasim"
> 
> pripisu v takovem pripade jeste vetu: "s presahem pozarnich odstupovych
> vzdalenosti na muj pozemek souhlasim:
> 
> zatim to vzdy proslo a zadny problem s tim nikdy nebyl
> 
> D.
> 
> > ------------ Původní zpráva ------------
> > Od: David Kutalek <kutaturk AT seznam.cz>
> > Předmět: Re: Fiber glass (Ecose) [was Re: [Ekodum] pěnové sklo]
> > Datum: 27.1.2011 14:31:29
> > ----------------------------------------
> > Hi Max,
> > 
> > late response too, sorry :-). Comments inline:
> > 
> > >    Let me start by adding that I don't follow up on the development
> > >    within mineral wools (rock or glass), due to the simple fact that
> > >    data (as well as common logic) shows that there's too much embodied
> > >    energy in producing it, and countries rarely has facilities to
> > >    recycle it.
> > 
> > I was wondering about the embodied energy. According to Knauf, their Ecose
> stuff
> > is produced in Czech Republic and energy needed is 8.3GJ/t [1]. Which is
> 2306kWh
> > per 1000Kg, which may be around 20-25m3. So around 100kWh/m3. That amount 
> > can
> be
> > saved in heating in one or two years, isn't it?
> > 
> > In some table I found general glass wool value of about 40GJ/t. Quite an
> > improvement. But of course, straw is probably still much much better 
> > (don't
> have
> > numbers - may depend a lot on transport efficiency).
> > 
> > As to recycling, this glass wool itself is made 60-80% of recycled glass 
> > [2].
> > Don't know details about possibilities recycling it again, though.
> > 
> > >    I am aware that a new 'silk' technology has been developed, which
> > >   explains for the smoothness you feel, however I personally prefer a
> > >    poison with a really bad flavour! In other words, to my knowledge,
> > >    the health problems in mineral wool has never been the formaldehyde,
> > >    colors etc. It's all about the small fibres which gets in your
> > >    lungs, in some cases through your skin.
> > >
> > >    -This is especially why in general the new nano-technology is
> > >    extremely dangerous, as it's made commercially available without
> > >    sufficient testing.
> > 
> > I agree with your nanotechnology point of view. IMHO we still even cannot
> > imagine what can happen... In this case, it is probably not used. It 
> > sould be
> > much less fibre-lossy as is usuall according to [2].
> > 
> > And, my common sense says - this material should be put into walls with
> > air-proof barrier to inside, and with wind barrier to outside, so it
> shouldn't
> > be risky during usage, should it? During installation, it is possible to 
> > use
> > high-quality mask, I hope it will help.
> > 
> > >    ...And I've always been able to find a better alternative than using
> > >    mineral wool. In worst cases expanded polystyren, in most cases
> > >    hemp, flax, cellulose, wool, reed-mats, straw. Yes, this is
> > >    typically more expensive. Sorry; it's a market driven economy, and
> > >    if not enough buys it, it will stay more expensive (Yes; that was a
> > >    hint!).
> > 
> > polystyren - isn't styren also carcinogenic? ; embodied energy is similar 
> > or
> > even bigger; recycling?
> > hemp - usually sold with plastic fibres (around 10%), so not compostable 
> > etc.
> 
> > flax,  - don't know details; borax too?
> > cellulose - contains borax (hemp usually too), colors chemicals
> > wool - when you buy it, isn't it treated against insects etc using 
> > chemicals?
> > 
> > So to get around chemicals etc, you need 'raw' material - like raw straw
> bales,
> > raw hemp, raw reed, isn't it?
> >     
> > >    As far as fire engineers goes, then it's my experience that many CZ
> > >   round stamp holders are simply uneducated about the alternatives,
> > >    and don't want to learn. Our straw bale house was the first to get a
> > >    fire approval of simply 3 cm earth plaster direct on the bales (both
> > >    sides). 
> > 
> > Thanks for your recipe. Unfortunately we do not have energy and time now 
> > to
> > fight fire-eng-issue beast. 
> > 
> > But it seems there are more cases to consider. For example, in other case
> than
> > you described, cellulose can burn out easily when you put light bulb into 
> > it,
> > while glass wool can handle it well. [3] My fire-eng told me, even with 
> > glass
> > wool it is still open construction - they _know_ about glass melting. 
> > But, as
> I
> > understand - it does not emit significant additional heat during fire. 
> > While
> > straw probably can (not big fire, but 'zhnuti'?).
> > 
> > Don't take me wrong - I am fan of straw, has one small straw building on 
> > my
> > garden. Will probably use it on some parts of my house. But unfortunately,
> with
> > my [free] time frame, I cannot handle pure-straw solution on my house.
> > 
> > David
> > 
> > 
> > [1] http://www.caschranitenergii.cz/knauf-insulationzavod-krupka
> > [2] http://www.stavebnivyrobekroku.cz/db_binary_file/plans/1480.pdf
> > [3] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dn4lWy8CVlY
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> S pozdravem,
> Ing. Daniel Grmela
> 
> danielgrmela AT email.cz
> tel:  +420 725 463 740 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting              +420 
> 725 463
> 740      end_of_the_skype_highlighting
> skype: daniel.grmela
> 
> Vysoké učení technické v Brně
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> Environmentální stavitelství,
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> 
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> 

S pozdravem,
Ing. Daniel Grmela

danielgrmela AT email.cz
tel:  +420 725 463 740 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting              +420 725 
463 740      end_of_the_skype_highlighting
skype: daniel.grmela

Vysoké učení technické v Brně
Stavební fyzika a tvorba vnitřního prostředí,
Environmentální stavitelství,
kancelář D212