slamak pozarko Re: Fiber glass (Ecose) [was Re: [Ekodum] pěnové sklo]

[danielgrmela AT email.cz]

Ahoj, odpoved Lukase pozarnika:

"cau,

RD bude muset byt zarazeny do III SPB. tim padem nam vzniknou vyssi pozadavky 
na odolnost konstrukci.
slama by nebyla problem, ale budou velke odstupy a musi se osetrit nosne 
prvky.

L."

osetreni nosnych prvku znamena, ze muzou v projektu vyjit velke dimenze 
a/nebo se bude do zpravy muset napsat protipozarni nater

skutecne provedeni pak stejne nikdo nekontroluje, cili je to fuk

velke odstupy znamenaji .. od nejvetsi fasady napr. kolem 9m

tam, kde se odstupy vejdou na vas pozemek je to v pohode urcite

tam, kde zasahnou na obecni pozemek a pozemek souseda bude potreba se s 
majiteli pozemku domluvit

resivam to tak, ze se odkazu na onorm a na pozarni test harmonizovany s EN, 
dle obojiho je slama B
 2, F90 a reknu, ze u nas tyto testy zatim nejsou resp. jsou chybne 
zharmonizovane, proto se slamou musime pocitat jako s horlavym materialem a 
odstupy vychazeji vetsi, nez odpovida realnemu nebezpeci

na situacku a pohledy, ktere majiteli sousednicvh pozemku stejne nechavam 
podepsat "se stavbou soulasim"

pripisu v takovem pripade jeste vetu: "s presahem pozarnich odstupovych 
vzdalenosti na muj pozemek souhlasim:

zatim to vzdy proslo a zadny problem s tim nikdy nebyl

D.

> ------------ Původní zpráva ------------
> Od: David Kutalek <kutaturk AT seznam.cz>
> Předmět: Re: Fiber glass (Ecose) [was Re: [Ekodum] pěnové sklo]
> Datum: 27.1.2011 14:31:29
> ----------------------------------------
> Hi Max,
> 
> late response too, sorry :-). Comments inline:
> 
> >    Let me start by adding that I don't follow up on the development
> >    within mineral wools (rock or glass), due to the simple fact that
> >    data (as well as common logic) shows that there's too much embodied
> >    energy in producing it, and countries rarely has facilities to
> >    recycle it.
> 
> I was wondering about the embodied energy. According to Knauf, their Ecose 
> stuff
> is produced in Czech Republic and energy needed is 8.3GJ/t [1]. Which is 
> 2306kWh
> per 1000Kg, which may be around 20-25m3. So around 100kWh/m3. That amount 
> can be
> saved in heating in one or two years, isn't it?
> 
> In some table I found general glass wool value of about 40GJ/t. Quite an
> improvement. But of course, straw is probably still much much better (don't 
> have
> numbers - may depend a lot on transport efficiency).
> 
> As to recycling, this glass wool itself is made 60-80% of recycled glass 
> [2].
> Don't know details about possibilities recycling it again, though.
> 
> >    I am aware that a new 'silk' technology has been developed, which
> >   explains for the smoothness you feel, however I personally prefer a
> >    poison with a really bad flavour! In other words, to my knowledge,
> >    the health problems in mineral wool has never been the formaldehyde,
> >    colors etc. It's all about the small fibres which gets in your
> >    lungs, in some cases through your skin.
> >
> >    -This is especially why in general the new nano-technology is
> >    extremely dangerous, as it's made commercially available without
> >    sufficient testing.
> 
> I agree with your nanotechnology point of view. IMHO we still even cannot
> imagine what can happen... In this case, it is probably not used. It sould 
> be
> much less fibre-lossy as is usuall according to [2].
> 
> And, my common sense says - this material should be put into walls with
> air-proof barrier to inside, and with wind barrier to outside, so it 
> shouldn't
> be risky during usage, should it? During installation, it is possible to use
> high-quality mask, I hope it will help.
> 
> >    ...And I've always been able to find a better alternative than using
> >    mineral wool. In worst cases expanded polystyren, in most cases
> >    hemp, flax, cellulose, wool, reed-mats, straw. Yes, this is
> >    typically more expensive. Sorry; it's a market driven economy, and
> >    if not enough buys it, it will stay more expensive (Yes; that was a
> >    hint!).
> 
> polystyren - isn't styren also carcinogenic? ; embodied energy is similar or
> even bigger; recycling?
> hemp - usually sold with plastic fibres (around 10%), so not compostable 
> etc. 
> flax,  - don't know details; borax too?
> cellulose - contains borax (hemp usually too), colors chemicals
> wool - when you buy it, isn't it treated against insects etc using 
> chemicals?
> 
> So to get around chemicals etc, you need 'raw' material - like raw straw 
> bales,
> raw hemp, raw reed, isn't it?
>     
> >    As far as fire engineers goes, then it's my experience that many CZ
> >   round stamp holders are simply uneducated about the alternatives,
> >    and don't want to learn. Our straw bale house was the first to get a
> >    fire approval of simply 3 cm earth plaster direct on the bales (both
> >    sides). 
> 
> Thanks for your recipe. Unfortunately we do not have energy and time now to
> fight fire-eng-issue beast. 
> 
> But it seems there are more cases to consider. For example, in other case 
> than
> you described, cellulose can burn out easily when you put light bulb into 
> it,
> while glass wool can handle it well. [3] My fire-eng told me, even with 
> glass
> wool it is still open construction - they _know_ about glass melting. But, 
> as I
> understand - it does not emit significant additional heat during fire. While
> straw probably can (not big fire, but 'zhnuti'?).
> 
> Don't take me wrong - I am fan of straw, has one small straw building on my
> garden. Will probably use it on some parts of my house. But unfortunately, 
> with
> my [free] time frame, I cannot handle pure-straw solution on my house.
> 
> David
> 
> 
> [1] http://www.caschranitenergii.cz/knauf-insulationzavod-krupka
> [2] http://www.stavebnivyrobekroku.cz/db_binary_file/plans/1480.pdf
> [3] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dn4lWy8CVlY
> 
> 
> 

S pozdravem,
Ing. Daniel Grmela

danielgrmela AT email.cz
tel:  +420 725 463 740 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting              +420 725 
463 740      end_of_the_skype_highlighting
skype: daniel.grmela

Vysoké učení technické v Brně
Stavební fyzika a tvorba vnitřního prostředí,
Environmentální stavitelství,
kancelář D212