[Ekodum] Fwd: slamak pozarko

[Daniel Grmela <daniel.grmela79 AT gmail.com>]

Ahoj, odpoved Lukase pozarnika:

"cau,

RD bude muset byt zarazeny do III SPB. tim padem nam vzniknou vyssi pozadavky na odolnost konstrukci.
slama by nebyla problem, ale budou velke odstupy a musi se osetrit nosne prvky.

L."

osetreni nosnych prvku znamena, ze muzou v projektu vyjit velke dimenze a/nebo se bude do zpravy muset napsat protipozarni nater

skutecne provedeni pak stejne nikdo nekontroluje, cili je to fuk

velke odstupy znamenaji .. od nejvetsi fasady napr. kolem 9m

tam, kde se odstupy vejdou na vas pozemek je to v pohode urcite

tam, kde zasahnou na obecni pozemek a pozemek souseda bude potreba se s majiteli pozemku domluvit

resivam to tak, ze se odkazu na onorm a na pozarni test harmonizovany s EN, dle obojiho je slama B

 2, F90 a reknu, ze u nas tyto testy zatim nejsou resp. jsou chybne zharmonizovane, proto se slamou musime pocitat jako s horlavym materialem a odstupy vychazeji vetsi, nez odpovida realnemu nebezpeci

na situacku a pohledy, ktere majiteli sousednicvh pozemku stejne nechavam podepsat "se stavbou soulasim"

pripisu v takovem pripade jeste vetu: "s presahem pozarnich odstupovych vzdalenosti na muj pozemek souhlasim:

zatim to vzdy proslo a zadny problem s tim nikdy nebyl

D.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Lukas Hejny <HejnyL AT seznam.cz>
Date: 2011/1/28
Subject: Re: pozarko ?
To: Daniel Grmela <daniel.grmela79 AT gmail.com>




<  ------------ Původní zpráva ------------
<  Od: Daniel Grmela <daniel.grmela79 AT gmail.com>
<  Předmět: pozarko ?
<  Datum: 27.1.2011 19:27:04
<  ----------------------------------------
<  Ahoj Lukáąi,
<
<  hele toto doslo z konference ekodomu, uměl bys k tomuto napsat poľární
<  zprávu ? to jsem neprojektoval, ale jejich hasic k tomu pozarko neumi a
<  proto to asi nebude izolovane slamou,ale min. vlnou
<
<  D.
<
<  ---------- Forwarded message ----------
<  From: David Kutalek <kutaturk AT seznam.cz>
<  Date: 2011/1/27
<  Subject: Re: Fiber glass (Ecose) [was Re: [Ekodum] pěnové sklo]
<  To: Daniel Grmela <daniel.grmela79 AT gmail.com>
<
<
<  Ahoj Dane,
<
<  diky za rychlou odpoved. Bude to na ohlasku, takze by se k tomu nemeli
<  vyjadrovat mistni hasici. Posilam pohledy a pudorysy, jeden rez. Vse v 2NP a
<  3NP je drevostavba s minimalni skladbou konstrukce, jen V stena je zdena. Na
<  S jsou cca 3.5m sousedi.
<
<  David
<
<  P.S.: Ta nase 'pozarnice' nema problem se slamou v prizemi a na pudach nad
<  prizemim, ale nechce je v 2NP a 3NP (te casti rikame 'stodola' :-)).
<
<  > ------------ Původní zpráva ------------
<  > Od: Daniel Grmela <daniel.grmela79 AT gmail.com>
<  > Předmět: Re: Fiber glass (Ecose) [was Re: [Ekodum] pěnové sklo]
<  > Datum: 27.1.2011 14:48:48
<  > ----------------------------------------
<  > Ahoj Davide,
<  >
<  > slamene projekty deleme bezne vcetne pozarnich zprav a zadny problem s tim
<  > nebyva. Chces li, posli jak to vypada, muzeme ti na to se spoluzakem
<  > -pozarnikem mrknout.
<  >
<  > Dan Grmela
<  >
<  > 2011/1/27 David Kutalek <kutaturk AT seznam.cz>
<  >
<  > > Hi Max,
<  > >
<  > > late response too, sorry :-). Comments inline:
<  > >
<  > > >    Let me start by adding that I don't follow up on the development
<  > > >    within mineral wools (rock or glass), due to the simple fact that
<  > > >    data (as well as common logic) shows that there's too much embodied
<  > > >    energy in producing it, and countries rarely has facilities to
<  > > >    recycle it.
<  > >
<  > > I was wondering about the embodied energy. According to Knauf, their
<  Ecose
<  > > stuff is produced in Czech Republic and energy needed is 8.3GJ/t [1].
<  Which
<  > > is 2306kWh per 1000Kg, which may be around 20-25m3. So around 100kWh/m3.
<  > > That amount can be saved in heating in one or two years, isn't it?
<  > >
<  > > In some table I found general glass wool value of about 40GJ/t. Quite an
<  > > improvement. But of course, straw is probably still much much better
<  (don't
<  > > have numbers - may depend a lot on transport efficiency).
<  > >
<  > > As to recycling, this glass wool itself is made 60-80% of recycled glass
<  > > [2]. Don't know details about possibilities recycling it again, though.
<  > >
<  > > >    I am aware that a new 'silk' technology has been developed, which
<  > > >   explains for the smoothness you feel, however I personally prefer a
<  > > >    poison with a really bad flavour! In other words, to my knowledge,
<  > > >    the health problems in mineral wool has never been the
<  formaldehyde,
<  > > >    colors etc. It's all about the small fibres which gets in your
<  > > >    lungs, in some cases through your skin.
<  > > >
<  > > >    -This is especially why in general the new nano-technology is
<  > > >    extremely dangerous, as it's made commercially available without
<  > > >    sufficient testing.
<  > >
<  > > I agree with your nanotechnology point of view. IMHO we still even
<  cannot
<  > > imagine what can happen... In this case, it is probably not used. It
<  sould
<  > > be much less fibre-lossy as is usuall according to [2].
<  > >
<  > > And, my common sense says - this material should be put into walls with
<  > > air-proof barrier to inside, and with wind barrier to outside, so it
<  > > shouldn't be risky during usage, should it? During installation, it is
<  > > possible to use high-quality mask, I hope it will help.
<  > >
<  > > >    ...And I've always been able to find a better alternative than
<  using
<  > > >    mineral wool. In worst cases expanded polystyren, in most cases
<  > > >    hemp, flax, cellulose, wool, reed-mats, straw. Yes, this is
<  > > >    typically more expensive. Sorry; it's a market driven economy, and
<  > > >    if not enough buys it, it will stay more expensive (Yes; that was a
<  > > >    hint!).
<  > >
<  > > polystyren - isn't styren also carcinogenic? ; embodied energy is
<  similar
<  > > or even bigger; recycling?
<  > > hemp - usually sold with plastic fibres (around 10%), so not compostable
<  > > etc.
<  > > flax,  - don't know details; borax too?
<  > > cellulose - contains borax (hemp usually too), colors chemicals
<  > > wool - when you buy it, isn't it treated against insects etc using
<  > > chemicals?
<  > >
<  > > So to get around chemicals etc, you need 'raw' material - like raw straw
<  > > bales, raw hemp, raw reed, isn't it?
<  > >
<  > > >    As far as fire engineers goes, then it's my experience that many CZ
<  > > >   round stamp holders are simply uneducated about the alternatives,
<  > > >    and don't want to learn. Our straw bale house was the first to get
<  a
<  > > >    fire approval of simply 3 cm earth plaster direct on the bales
<  (both
<  > > >    sides).
<  > >
<  > > Thanks for your recipe. Unfortunately we do not have energy and time now
<  to
<  > > fight fire-eng-issue beast.
<  > >
<  > > But it seems there are more cases to consider. For example, in other
<  case
<  > > than you described, cellulose can burn out easily when you put light
<  bulb
<  > > into it, while glass wool can handle it well. [3] My fire-eng told me,
<  even
<  > > with glass wool it is still open construction - they _know_ about glass
<  > > melting. But, as I understand - it does not emit significant additional
<  heat
<  > > during fire. While straw probably can (not big fire, but 'zhnuti'?).
<  > >
<  > > Don't take me wrong - I am fan of straw, has one small straw building on
<  my
<  > > garden. Will probably use it on some parts of my house. But
<  unfortunately,
<  > > with my [free] time frame, I cannot handle pure-straw solution on my
<  house.
<  > >
<  > > David
<  > >
<  > >
<  > > [1] http://www.caschranitenergii.cz/knauf-insulationzavod-krupka
<  > > [2] http://www.stavebnivyrobekroku.cz/db_binary_file/plans/1480.pdf
<  > > [3] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dn4lWy8CVlY
<  > >
<  > > _______________________________________________
<  > > Ekodum mailing list
<  > > Ekodum AT fsv.cvut.cz
<  > > http://mailman.fsv.cvut.cz/mailman/listinfo/ekodum
<  > >
<  > >
<  >
<  >
<  > --
<  > *p.s. mam novy email: daniel.grmela79 AT gmail.com*
<  >
<  > S pozdravem,
<  > Ing. Daniel Grmela
<  >
<  > daniel.grmela79 AT gmail.com
<  > tel:  +420 725 463 740
<  > skype: daniel.grmela
<  >
<  > Vysoké učení technické v Brně
<  > Stavební fyzika a tvorba vnitřního prostředí,
<  > Environmentální stavitelství,
<  > kancelář D212
<  >
<  >
<  >
<
<
<
<  --
<  *p.s. mam novy email: daniel.grmela79 AT gmail.com*
<
<  S pozdravem,
<  Ing. Daniel Grmela
<
<  daniel.grmela79 AT gmail.com
<  tel:  +420 725 463 740
<  skype: daniel.grmela
<
<  Vysoké učení technické v Brně
<  Stavební fyzika a tvorba vnitřního prostředí,
<  Environmentální stavitelství,
<  kancelář D212
<
<
<

--

p.s. mam novy email: daniel.grmela79 AT gmail.com

S pozdravem,

Ing. Daniel Grmela

daniel.grmela79 AT gmail.com

tel:  +420 725 463 740

skype: daniel.grmela

Vysoké učení technické v Brně

Stavební fyzika a tvorba vnitřního prostředí,

Environmentální stavitelství,

kancelář D212